Editor’s note: The below interview contains spoilers for Hacks Season 4 Episode 6.
The Emmy-winning comedy series Hacks had a lot of storylines and shifting power dynamics to address in Season 4 — chief among them the aftermath of Ava (Hannah Einbinder) blackmailing Deborah (Jean Smart) in order to get the head writer position in that wild Season 3 finale twist. Just as exciting and unpredictable, though, is the ever-evolving relationship between manager extraordinaire Jimmy (Paul W. Downs) and the assistant-turned-manager, Kayla (Megan Stalter).
Season 3 of Hacks ended with Jimmy asking Kayla to be a partner at his new management company (they’re still working on the name…) and Kayla running headfirst into her new role. Even though they are essentially equals now, their wonderfully chaotic dynamic, firmly established in Season 1, remains intact. So far in Season 4, Kayla’s worked on finding her client niche, found them an assistant (played by comic Robby Hoffman), and got them a meeting with Canada’s popular TikTok dance mom sensation, unexpectedly played by Julianne Nicholson, who’s typically known for dramatic roles.
During this interview with Collider, Megan Stalter and Paul W. Downs dig into Kayla and Jimmy’s new business venture, how impressed they are with Julianne Nicholson’s comedy chops, and how Robby Hoffman’s energy was exactly what Jimmy and Kayla’s dynamic needed. Plus, Downs — who is a co-creator along with Lucia Aniello and Jen Statsky — breaks down what it was like directing that emotional moment between Ava and Deborah on the beach in Episode 6.
COLLIDER: Paul, a creator question for you: Was there a lot of talk about how long to keep Deborah and Ava apart? The end of Episode 6 is when they have that heartfelt moment. I was really impressed with how long you kept them at odds with each other. Was that a big topic of discussion going into the season?
PAUL W. DOWNS: Oh, yeah. We always want to deliver on the grist between them, because that is part of the magic. The ways in which they change from butting heads and cracking each other open. But we also knew it would be really fun to see them [at odds], especially with Ava having a slightly new dynamic. She claps back in a way that’s really fun to write and is really funny. As much as it can be vicious, it’s also their love language, too.
So, we did talk a lot about it. But we did also want to make sure we were doing something different than we’ve done in the past, because they’ve had moments like in Season 2, where after Deborah finds out about the email, they kind of make up shortly thereafter. And in this one, we thought that the mounting pressure of this late-night show might keep them at odds for a little bit longer. But again, we always calibrate how much we want to do that, because at the end of the day, I think people do want to see them together, even though part of the DNA of the show is the ways in which they’re different.
Why Are Ava and Deborah So Brutal to Each Other in ‘Hacks’ Season 4?

Going off what you said, they hurl some pretty gnarly insults at each other and do some crazy stuff. Was there ever a moment in the writer’s room where you were like, “Are we going too far? Is this the point of no return?”
DOWNS: No, in fact, there was a moment where we were like, “You know, I think we need to look back at the first five episodes and put some more zingers in.” We need to have some more barbs. Because the truth is, that they would. Especially Deborah, who’s someone who wants to be in control. To have something taken away from her? She would be fit to be tied. We never thought it was too far.
Julianne Nicholson Was the Only Person ‘Hacks’ Co-Creators Considered for Dance Mom

Image via Max

One of my favorite parts of the season was seeing Julianne Nicholson playing the TikTok dancer. I was so delighted to see her being cast in such a goofy part. Megan, what was it like working with her? I loved finding out that Kayla’s friends with Demi Moore’s daughter. That cracked me up.
MEGAN STALTER: She is such a genius actor and so funny. I feel like it’s just so easy to hang out with her, but also to watch her deliver different emotions at the drop of a hat. I feel like she’s gotten the note of like, “Oh, can you do that a little more grounded?” And then she would be in full tears, fully taking you to a different place. She’s incredible to watch. So fun to be around. She’s so good at comedy. I know she’s done more dramatic stuff, but it’s just incredible that she can do both with such ease. I just love her. I’m a huge fan, so it was really great to have her. The dance is just… I can’t even watch it without laughing.
Paul, were you surprised to have [Julianne Nicholson] enter the picture with this zany character? How did that casting come about?
DOWNS: You haven’t even seen where it goes. It goes to an absolutely insane place. What you’ve seen is at the tip of the iceberg. It goes to such a crazy place, and it is so comedic. We were like, “I think the way that this will feel the funniest is if it is done by someone who is an incredible dramatic actress.” If you have someone who can deliver on it and make it grounded and make these absolutely outlandish situations feel real and well observed, it will be so much funnier. So we offered it to her. There was nobody else in the picture. It was just we thought that is a person who would be perfect for this. She was like, “I’m excited to do something really different.” I can’t wait for people to see it. Like Meg says, it is crazy where she can go and it gets really surprising.

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STALTER: Like her commitment. Since she’s such an amazing dramatic actor, she’s so quick to go anywhere, and to commit to something like being a dance TikTok mom, and to see someone commit in such a grounded way is what makes it so funny. And I’ll say that I’m so impressed by the casting, because I feel like watching her, she’s capable of anything, but she’s even funnier than you can imagine.
Jimmy and Kayla’s Shared Assistant Is the Perfect Addition to ‘Hacks’ Season 4

Image via Max

It was a very unconventional Mare of Easttown reunion. Another wonderful character, Meg, that you have a lot of interaction with, is Robby Hoffman’s Randi. There’s so much I want to know about just filming those scenes. How did you land on Speed being the movie that they get obsessed with?
DOWNS: Honestly, I think it came from Sandra Bullock first. We are such fans of hers. I don’t know exactly how we got to Speed. But I know that it was first, like, “You should sign Sandra Bullock.” And Jimmy’s like, “Well, I think she’s doing pretty good. I think she’s got great representation.” We knew we wanted that. So it really came from that. But yeah, Robby is so funny.
STALTER: So good.
DOWNS: And the dynamic of this new character with Jimmy and Kayla, what a wild and weird Whack Pack, I’m gonna call it. We had a great time, and Robby makes me laugh so much.
STALTER: Robby has a different energy than Kayla and Jimmy have, so to add a third person, you have to have someone really funny that also brings a different energy. I was very excited that Kayla gets an assistant. I thought it was just such a funny, genius storyline. I remember Lucia being like, “Oh, we’re thinking Robby.” I’m like, “Oh my god, it has to be Robby.”
Episode 6 of ‘Hacks’ Featured Season 4’s Toughest Scene To Shoot

Image via Max

Paul, you directed Episode 6. It was so beautiful. There are so many different little pieces that I feel came together so well. Especially when Deborah did the U-turn, just like Ava did, on her way to the hospital.
DOWNS: Good eye! Good eye.
What was it like crafting that conversation on the beach with Ava and Deborah? Was it different on the page? Did it completely change once you got behind the camera?
DOWNS: We’re always writing. So we’re writing when it comes to the script, or when we’re on set, we’re doing little rewrites and changing little things or in the edit, when we lift the line or put something in. So writing is a part of the process at every stage, but there wasn’t a ton changed on the day. What was really difficult was that setting. We had many different versions of what that would be, because we really had to get Ava to a place where she would be convinced to come back. And obviously, this has been a pattern that’s happened to her before. She recognizes the toxicity of the relationship. She recognizes that Deborah has continued to let her down.
So having Deborah literally run into the freezing cold ocean and do this act of service was actually something that showcased to Ava how much she really does care. Deborah literally wrecks her second favorite fur and enters the freezing cold ocean to try and save her. So that took a long time to figure out. There were a lot of different versions of that that we conceptualized and toyed with. That scene was the thing that was probably written and rewritten the most in the whole season. So, when we got there, we didn’t change it a lot, because we had done a lot of drafts.
New episodes of Hacks Season 4 air Thursdays on Max.

Hacks

Release Date

May 13, 2021

Network

HBO Max, Max

Showrunner

Lucia Aniello

Directors

Desiree Akhavan

Writers

Pat Regan, Ariel Karlin, Carol Leifer, Joe Mande, Guy Branum, Andrew Law, Samantha Riley